Sitting at Kyiv's main train station moments before wrapping up his trip to Ukraine, Dutch Defense Minister Ruben Brekelmans had a lot to discuss.
Brekelmans has just announced that the first batch of Dutch F-16s are flying Ukrainian skies, defending the country from Russian air strikes. He also announced that the Netherlands will invest 400 million euros into drone production, with a portion of the sum going to Ukrainian drone producers.
Yet, besides the official announcements, the minister said there's a lot he will be bringing back to The Hague to discuss with the country's government before the upcoming Ramstein meeting.
While in Kyiv, Brekelmans learned some details of President Volodymyr Zelensky’s so-called Victory Plan, and told the Kyiv Independent that he “heard more” about the idea of Ukraine joining NATO without the occupied parts of the country.
"I think the fact that Ukraine is coming up with new plans and proposals, as well as trying to gather international support for that, is important. In order to convey our official Dutch position, I also first need to discuss this with the Dutch government," Brekelmans told the Kyiv Independent.
"I think the fact that Ukraine is coming up with new plans and proposals, as well as trying to gather international support for that, is important."
Moments before boarding the train out of the country — one of the main ways to travel since the Russian invasion shut down all flights to Ukraine — the Dutch defense minister gave an exclusive interview to the Kyiv Independent, discussing Ukraine's usage of F-16 jets, a major Dutch investment into drone production, and why Ukraine's NATO bid is currently weak on support.
Olena Goncharova
Ukraine's defensive F-16s
While in Kyiv, Brekelmans made a few statements regarding the F-16 jets provided to Ukraine.
According to Brekelmans, most of the 24 planes that the Netherlands promised to deliver to Ukraine will be in operation by the end of the year.
"We delivered the first batch of F-16s," Brekelmans told the Kyiv Independent, adding that he couldn’t disclose how many planes were delivered in the first batch. "We will deliver the other F-16s to complete the 24 in the upcoming months."
Brekelmans said that the Netherlands are also to deliver F-16 fighter jets to Romania for Ukrainian pilots to continue their training near the country's border.
"The first Ukrainian pilots are starting their training in Romania now. It's very important that more pilots master the F-16s, so we also gave 18 F-16s to the Romanian training center," he added.
However, the minister acknowledged that the planes are only operational for defense purposes, as offensive operations require more training.
"I think that Ukrainian pilots are doing an amazing job. In the Netherlands, training for F-16 pilots takes many years, and Ukrainian pilots have done this in slightly more than a year," Brekelmans said. "What they're doing is exceptional."
"In the Netherlands, training for F-16 pilots takes many years, and Ukrainian pilots have done this in slightly more than a year."
Ruben Brekelmans, Minister of Defense of The Netherlands during the memorial service at the Ginkelse Heide near Ede during the annual memorial of the World War II operation Market Garden in Ede, Netherlands on Sep. 21, 2024. (Sjoerd van der Wal/Getty Images)
"Yet, the F-16s are currently mostly used for air defense. If you want to perform more offensive maneuvers, it's more complicated. That's all I can say: They're mostly now used for air defense."
Asked why the Netherlands and Denmark are leading the F-16 coalition, and not the U.S., which has over 1,000 F-16 planes, compared to several dozen that are operated by European NATO member states, Brekelmans assured that Washington is doing its part.
"With every weapon system, it's not only providing the weapon itself, in this case, the F-16. It's about training enough people, both pilots and maintenance engineers. It's also about providing enough ammunition. It's about providing enough spare parts. It's also providing the capacity to make sure that the maintenance can take place," the minister said.
"At this point, it is important that we make sure that we enlarge the entire F-16 ecosystem of Ukraine. You can provide more F-16s, but if you don't have the pilots, or you don't have the engineers or the spare parts or the ammunition, then it's not effective – it's useless."
The Kyiv Independent news desk
Air defense and drone war
Besides the F-16 coalition the Netherlands are leading, the country is also making sure to bolster Ukraine's air defense and provide the country with hundreds of heavy drones.
"This weekend, we announced an action plan on drones: 400 million euros in total for surveillance drones, defensive drones, offensive drones, and attack drones," Brekelmans said.
"Around half of them are going to be developed and produced in the Netherlands, part of it in Ukraine, part of it in other Western countries," Brekelmans said, adding that the project will last "this year and next year."
"Ukraine needs different types of air defense systems to protect its skies and particularly vulnerable assets like airfields," he added.
"We invest in the most advanced drones, not in the simple FPV drones, because there are other countries that can do that much more efficiently. We invest in the more advanced drones, and we see that those drones are making a big difference now on the battlefield."
"It is our new area of focus after F-16s and the Patriot system, so we are going to invest heavily," he added.
"And if some of those drones are really successful, then we also have hundreds of millions available to further scale up the production of those drones."
Concerning air defense, the Netherlands wasn't able to deliver a Patriot air defense battery, yet according to Brekelmans, the country was able to pass a radar system and is planning on delivering three launchers "in the upcoming weeks."
"We try to combine everything into one full Patriot system. So far, it hasn't worked out, but the elements that we already provide are used immediately."
Despite the problems with delivering air defense to Ukraine, Brekelmans said Kyiv's proposal for NATO countries to down missiles and drones over Ukrainian territory isn't the solution.
"The big issue is that we lack air defense resources. We lack air defense systems and ammunition. And if we put them at the border with Ukraine, we cannot use them in other places to defend NATO territory. If we can use that ammunition and those systems to defend Ukraine, we could easily put them inside Ukraine and not at the border," Brekelmans said.
"I'm not convinced that this is the most effective way to proceed," he added.
Long wait, little result
Brekelmans' visit comes at a crucial moment. Ukrainian troops are battered along the entire front line, with Russian troops now occupying the town of Vuhledar and fighting only seven kilometers east of Pokrovsk.
Part of the reason for Ukrainian setbacks is the lack of weapons and delays in deliveries, which the Dutch defense minister had solemnly acknowledged.
"I agree that we have not all delivered what we have promised. We give Ukraine enough to fight but not enough to win. That is a big issue. If you look at the Netherlands, ramping up our defense industry, we also face some issues," Brekelmans said.
"For the next couple of years, we made 1 billion euros in total available to ramp up and stimulate our (defense) industry," he added. "I think we all, European countries, should do that because we are not producing fast enough."
"Discussions within the EU take too long. About the European defense strategy, for example, we have endless discussions about whether other partners like the U.S. and the U.K. should be involved. I think they should clearly be involved because we also need their defense companies to ramp up the European industry. We should act much faster and much bigger," the minister added.
President Volodymyr Zelensky and other Ukrainian top officials have placed emphasis on the upcoming Ramstein meeting set to take place on Oct. 12. Many are set to believe that this particular meeting will deliver some kind of a breakthrough in terms of weapons deliveries and potentially some sort of announcements on parts of the Ukrainian Victory Plan that the president is set to present.
"We shouldn't raise the expectations too high because it can also be disappointing," Brekelmans said.
Ukraine's NATO bid
Zelensky’s Victory Plan, which has not been seen by the public, will be shown to allies during the Ramstein meeting, according to the president.
As part of the plan, Ukraine wants more heavy weapons, including long-range missiles, and a concrete decision on the country's NATO membership, without the usual nonbinding wordings, or at least seeing NATO member states helping Ukraine down the neverending Russian missiles and drones over its territory.
Brekelmans was skeptical about Ukraine receiving any guarantees on these issues during the upcoming gathering in Germany.
"We have shown our willingness to support, but we also said that we want to avoid any direct confrontation between Russia and NATO. If there is still an active war taking place, it's then hard to have Ukraine become a member of NATO because then you would have a direct confrontation," Brekelmans said.
When asked whether he had discussed the idea of Ukraine receiving NATO membership or official guarantees for the parts of the country not occupied by Russian troops, Brekelmans confirmed that he had “heard more about this” during his visit.
"I have heard more about this today in the meetings that I had, but because it has not been officially announced, I've not been able to discuss this with the Dutch government yet," Brekelmans said.
This alleged plan hasn’t been officially mentioned by Ukraine or its partners, but a recent Financial Times article referenced it, citing unnamed Western diplomats. A source close to Ukraine’s president, who spoke to the Kyiv Independent on condition of anonymity, denied that such a plan exists.
"President Zelensky announced that he would officially share more details on Sunday at Ramstein,” Brekelmans said. “After that, it will become easier for me to discuss this with the Dutch government."
Martin Fornusek
Introducing official
merch from the Kyiv Independent
